Podcast

Transcript

Four voices: male voiceover [MV]; Jackie Bird [JB]; Hannah Lawrence [HL]; Colin McFarlane [CM]

[MV]
Love Scotland – from the National Trust for Scotland. Presented by Jackie Bird.

[JB]
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Love Scotland. Although much of today’s story takes place at Ayrshire’s Culzean Castle, perched on cliffs on Scotland’s west coast, it begins in West Africa. It’s the year 1700 and the transatlantic slave trade is nearing its peak. A boy born in Guinea, whose birth name has been lost to history, is sold into slavery. He’s one of millions of slaves from Africa, and most of those captured in Guinea were bound for the Caribbean, where conditions were harsh. The death rate on the ships that carried them and on the plantations was high. Of more than 3 million Africans transported to the Caribbean and the Americas by the British between 1640 and 1807, some 400,000 didn’t even survive the journey.

The boy is eventually brought to Scotland, to Culzean. At the time, young African boys were used in some stately homes as a sign of wealth and power. He’s given the first name Scipio and the surname of the castle’s owners, Kennedy.

His is a revealing story of what life was like for an African slave in Scotland at the dawn of the 18th century. Scipio’s life has been pieced together by Hannah Lawrence, who’s been connecting fragments of historical records for a blog on the National Trust for Scotland website. And, we have Hannah in person to tell us all about it. Hannah, welcome to the podcast.

[HL]
Thank you so much! I’m so happy to be here.

[JB]
Now, before we tell Scipio’s story, my first observation is that I didn’t know that enslaved people, never mind children, were brought to Scotland. Was Scipio a rarity?

[HL]
No, he wouldn’t have been a rarity. I think this, as you said, was fashionable. This is what gave aristocratic ladies the edge in society, to say that they were part of this new, colonial world. Servants were often young, and they were also considered a good investment for the future, and sometimes not a great investment. Once they got older, they were forgotten.

[JB]
How did you become interested in Scipio’s story?

[HL]
I did research on British country houses for many years, starting in about 2014. I came across his story and I thought it was very interesting because it’s such an important story and there’s so little known about it. I was really shocked when I started asking around curators and historians, and nobody had heard about him. So, I decided to delve a little bit deeper, and I realised just how fascinating his story was, even though we do know so little about it. I think he’s probably living through maybe a little more than a dozen sheets of paper. So yeah, I think I was shocked by the disparity in terms of how much we actually knew about him and how much there was to know.

[JB]
And your job is as an academic researcher. How challenging was it to piece that story together once you got your teeth into it?

[HL]
It’s extremely challenging. I talk to people about it all the time, and I bore them to death! Most people in history live on through administrative documents, and sometimes documents that have nothing to do with them, especially in Scipio Kennedy’s case – a lot of times he’s a footnote in the Kennedy family archive. So yes, it’s extremely difficult to match up dates, match up names. And of course, there’s a million John Kennedys, a million Thomas Kennedys – a million Kennedys in general(!) – so putting it all together has been a challenge.

[JB]
Well, let’s talk about Scipio’s story. What’s the earliest date that we find him?

[HL]
The earliest date we find him is around 1695–97; this is through back-dating, essentially. We don’t have anything from that date itself. What we have is his manumission contract, which I’m sure we’ll come to …

[JB]
That’s his freedom contract, isn’t it?

[HL]
This is his freedom contract. There’s a few caveats there, but yes, it’s his freedom contract. And in that, in 1725, it says that he is 28 or 30. So, if we do the calculations, that means that around 1695 to 1697 he would have been born.

[JB]
How old was he and where was he taken from?

[HL]
He would have been taken from Jamaica by Captain Andrew Douglas. He would originally have been from Guinea, Africa – we know that again from the manumission contract. He would have been around 6, I believe, at the time of being bought by Douglas.

[JB]
And it was Captain Andrew Douglas who brought him to Scotland. Do we know why?

[HL]
He did. He had Scipio for 3 years and he was brought over to Scotland to be a gift for his daughter for her wedding day to John Kennedy, 2nd Baronet of Culzean.

[JB]
Good grief. So, Scipio was a gift for the captain’s daughter Jean. Then what happened?

[HL]
Scipio was a gift for Jean. Then Jean and John got married, and they moved to Culzean. That is where Scipio was brought with them. He would have been perhaps around 10 at this point, if he had been with Douglas for about 3 years. He would have likely been a page boy, a servant just like we spoke about earlier. He would have been maybe not very much help; he was very, very young, so I’m not entirely sure how much he was actually able to contribute to the household. But domestic servants were quite young back then. He would have done basic domestic chores around the house. He would have been a very visible servant, which likely would have been part of what they were wanting.

[JB]
Because presumably he would have been the only person of colour perhaps in the castle, the estate, the surrounding area?

[HL]
Absolutely. He’s the only one that I’ve come across. I have done some digging and I haven’t found any evidence of another black person in the area.

[JB]
Do we know anything of his life there?

[HL]
We know very little. We know that later in life he potentially was taught weaving and textiles, and of course we have a lot of information in the manumission contract where he said that he was given food and clothing and maintenance and education; that he was treated with extraordinary kindness. So, based on that and pretty much that alone, we can glean a little bit about what his life would have been like. Other than that, it’s mostly speculation.

[JB]
You say he was in his late 20s, nearly 30, when he was given his freedom. Do we know why?

[HL]
We don’t know why.

[JB]
Was that normal?

[HL]
It’s hard to tell if it were normal or not, just because there are so few records that we know about. He talks in the manumission contract about him accepting Christianity; we know that this was often a factor for manumitting slaves. We don’t know the particular reasons around his manumission, but we do know that around 1725, it wasn’t in statute in Scotland or England that slavery was actually allowed and legal. It was kind of an ambiguous state to be in anyway. And so, to be manumitted is to also admit that you have a slave in a country where slavery is not written into law. That’s what I mean about the caveats about the manumission. Was it an actual freedom contract? Some people say no; some people say it was just a record of employment, it was an employment contract that says you’re now going to be paid for your labour. That just inherently means that you’re not a slave. But it doesn’t specifically say Scipio was a slave and is now not a slave, in the way that other slave documents do say that from that century. It is later in that century that we get the more explicit wording in contracts like that. And so, there’s nothing to say why, but it does seem that they’re trying to paint a picture of a happy family, of good relationships. One would like to hope that he’s being freed because they have some sort of familial connection that they’re looking to legitimise in another way.

[JB]
I suppose the test of that is to find out what he did after achieving manumission.

[HL]
We have some more evidence from that period of time. He did go on to get married and he had 8 children.

[JB]
Oh my goodness, right.

[HL]
8 children!

[JB]
Who did he marry?

[HL]
He married a woman named Margaret Grey. She was a local woman. First of all, we know that, of course, because of the marriage certificate. We know her before that because they both show up in what’s called the Kirk Sessions, which is the lowest court in the Church at the time. She goes to the Kirk Session and says ‘I am with child’, and this is before marriage, I’ll remind you!

[JB]
Ooh.

[HL]
She says, ‘I am with child, and it is with Scipio Kennedy of Culzean’. There is a riveting couple of pages in these Kirk Sessions where they’re going back and forth about whether he takes responsibility or not, and how they’re both punished for fornication out of wedlock.

[JB]

Do we know if this was a romance, or just an attraction, a fleeting attraction as they say?

[HL]
I think that’s a great question and it’s one that I’ve contemplated myself. I do a lot of reading between the lines of these Kirk Session records to try and see if I can glean anything from them! There is a bit of it that I think points to her feeling a certain way about Scipio Kennedy. It’s a part where she – I don’t have the exact verbiage here – but what she says is that he has not been essentially with anyone but her, and that she doesn’t plan to give the child to another. That’s the exact verbiage: she wouldn’t give that child to another. That to me says that she feels there’s something monogamous potentially about their relationship, and that she is prepared to take on the child regardless of whether he takes responsibility or not. But there’s some sort of affection there, I like to read into it!

[JB]
Yes, that’s good enough for me. Let’s put it down as a love story, shall we?

[HL]
Yes! Let’s do.

[JB]
What was the reaction in the community though to an interracial marriage?

[HL]
This is another question that I think is an interesting one, and I’ve done a bit of research on it. I want to defer to David Olusoga …

[JB]
Yes, the historian.

[HL]
That’s right. He spoke a little bit about that. He said that black Georgians were in interracial marriages and it was seemingly an unremarkable feature of life. This racial mixing seemed to have not convinced some people that relationships with black people should be taboo. We’re talking about black Georgians, that’s early 1700s. Later, another historian has said that once we get later into the 1700s and ideas start to change, and people start to be more familiar with the idea of slavery, and they start to draw opinions and create judgements, then they start to get more critical of this idea of interracial marriage. So, it’s entirely possible that at the beginning of their marriage, it might have been a lot easier to have been married than later in their marriage, when people had started developing very racialised ideas and judgemental ideas about interracial relationships.

[JB]
How interesting. You always think that, as civilisation develops, we’re supposed to become more advanced. It seems in this case that has certainly not been the case. Ok, so 8 children. Apart from the fact that he was pretty busy at home, what of his later life?

[HL]
Yeah, so 8 children. Eventually, I’m assuming, because of the growing family, they needed their own space. We assume that he would have been living in Culzean Castle while he was working there as a servant. But once he got married, was manumitted and started having children, they built him a house to the tune of about £90, which was really, really pricey. I don’t want to get into the business of old money conversion because it’s really, really dicey, but it’s about half the wage of a middle-class income, that they spent on just his house. So, he moved into this house and may have learned weaving, potentially. He ended up living until he was 84 or 86 years old, in 1774. He lived a really long life. The life expectancy of that time was around 40, so …

[JB]
Gosh. He had a house in the grounds of Culzean, built for him by the family. I understand that Jean left him a pretty substantial sum in her will.

[HL]
She did. She left him £10. By comparison, she left each of her three grandchildren a third of £40. She had a little note in her will that says ‘to my old servant Scipio’. We can gauge the way that he was sitting in that family by that little note alone.

[JB]
It is, I suppose, because he was taken from his home; he had no control over his life before, during or after. What’s your assessment about what his story and what you’ve unearthed tells us about Scipio and about his time?

[HL]
I think Scipio’s an important story because he doesn’t have any grand court cases associated with him. There was nothing huge that came out of his life in his lifetime, or even after, in the way that Joseph Knight, who was another enslaved Scottish man. His life resulted in a landmark case which ended slavery in Scotland, or it made slavery in Scotland not legal is what I should say. So, nothing really grand happened around his life, and so it speaks to the ubiquity of these sorts of lives that they can just be there, be ‘normal lives’. They’re part of the Scottish story; they’re part of the Scottish landscape; they’re part of the Scottish built history. I think that’s why he’s so important because I think he demonstrates that exact meaning.

[JB]
Yes, I think it underscores what I said at the beginning, that it was a normal life – but I didn’t know anything about it. I didn’t know that enslaved people were brought to castles to be playthings or accessories for the wealthy.

[HL]
No, often we do see it in paintings. These paintings aren’t often up for people to see, and that’s a shame. Often, they’re not contextualised properly so that people have an idea of where these paintings came from, why they were painted this way, who were these people. A lot of times, these grand, aristocratic figures are the only ones acknowledged in the painting, when we’ve got a young, black, enslaved boy who’s serving the principal character. A lot of these servant characters in the painting go unacknowledged; they go unnamed.

[JB]
Well, you’ve certainly done your bit to bring him to prominence. Can I just ask – he had 8 children. I understand from your blog that at least a few of his children did pretty well for themselves. Has anyone tried to track them down through the generations? Are there any Scipio descendants that you’ve been able to make contact with?

[HL]
There are. I luckily had one of his descendants contact me after reading the blog series, and he also wrote up an article in a newspaper. He had traced his line back to Scipio. There will be many, many more out there. 8 children is no joke, so he’ll have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people out there who can trace their line.

[JB]
That must have been a moment for you, whenever one of Scipio’s descendants actually got in touch.

[HL]
Yeah! I think the most shocking part probably to him is that he’s a white Scottish man. He didn’t expect it; he wouldn’t have expected it. But it’s in our blood. We’re a melting pot, all of us, no matter where we’re from.

[JB]
We certainly are. And you’re now working on a Scipio trail at Culzean – what will that entail?

[HL]
It’s really exciting. I’m really excited to finally get Scipio on the ground there in Culzean. The trail will follow different places where he’s purported to or definitely has tread, on the Culzean estate and also in the Kirkoswald old kirkyard, where it’s got the old Kirkoswald church and it’s got him and his son’s gravestone. We’re really excited to get something that people can explore on their own, and hopefully it’ll be that next step toward getting a permanent display at Culzean.

[JB]
Hannah Lawrence, thank you for sharing your research with us.

[HL]
Thank you so much! I’ve really enjoyed it. Thanks so much.

[JB]
But that is not where we leave Scipio’s story, because it’s attracted the interest of one of the stars of the historical drama Outlander, who’ll be joining me in just a moment to reveal how historical truth has merged with best-selling fiction. We’ll be back after the break.

[MV]
From coastlines to castles, wildlife to wilderness, when you become a member of the National Trust for Scotland you can enjoy the very best of what Scotland has to offer, as often as you like. And you can help to protect it. The National Trust for Scotland is Scotland’s largest conservation charity. By becoming a member, you join thousands of others who are all playing their part to care for the places we love, for generations to come. Join us and become a member today. Just search National Trust for Scotland.

[JB]
Welcome back to the Love Scotland podcast and welcome to Colin McFarlane. Known to many of you as an actor on TV and movies, he’s appeared on hit shows like Dr Who and in the Dark Knight trilogy. But notably for our purposes, he’s also one of the stars of the immensely successful Outlander TV series. Hello, Colin.

[CM]
Hello, Jackie. What a pleasure to be here.

[JB]
Well, it’s lovely to have you. We’ve just been hearing all about the life of Scipio Kennedy, and in Outlander you play Ulysses, a freed slave in post-Jacobite Scotland. Now firstly, to be clear, the real person and the character you play, they aren’t linked, are they?

[CM]
Well, we didn’t think so when I started filming … but bizarrely we now think that having traced my McFarlane Scottish ancestry, bizarrely there may be for those Outlander fans tuning in (and they know all about the Battle of Culloden), there may actually be a connection to the Jacobites in the Battle of Culloden.

[JB]
Now, that is a real tease. We’ll come to that a little bit later. But talk about Ulysses for the moment. As I discovered earlier in the podcast, for reasons of race and class, there are very few detailed historical records. So, when you took on the role of Ulysses, were you able to research the character?

[CM]
Yeah, I looked around, but I didn’t know about Scipio at that time. I just did general slave research, I guess. Diana Gabaldon, who writes the books for those who don’t know the series, she is an historian and that’s how she began. Outlander was a sort of exercise to see if she could write a novel – ha ha ha! And then it turns into this mammoth juggernaut. So, I read the books that Ulysses is in, and there’s a lot of research within the books, which was really useful. It tells you all about the time, who was in power, what lives were like at that time – so I got a lot of my research from her writing. It was very clear. She gave me a lovely back story to Ulysses.

He was originally from South-West England. He had a series of different masters. His first master, who supposedly treated him very well, was a scholar and taught Ulysses to read Greek and Latin, and to play harpsichord, and to be able to talk to gentlemen and ladies. They travelled the world together and supposedly had a great relationship, and then his master dies and sells him to a Scottish lord, who was called Hector Cameron. We see him briefly in one of the episodes of Outlander. He then has a wife called Jocasta, who’s a major character in the series. She’s losing her sight, so Ulysses gets passed to Jocasta to look after her and guide her because she’s basically going blind, which is where we pick it up when we join Ulysses in the story. So, he’s literally passed slightly from pillar to post, and then has a very long stint with Jocasta. In the books – that you have hinted at in the series – he has a fully fledged affair with Jocasta for 20 years.

[JB]
Hmmm. So, that’s Ulysses. When did you learn about Scipio Kennedy, the real-life Scipio?

[CM]
Well, I knew about Scipio when I have a charity called Making History, which is (in simple terms for the audience) a sort of Who Do You Think You Are? for kids, with a bit of a twist. We would go into schools with celebrities like Miriam Margolyes, Jim Broadbent – they would talk about why family history and cultural history is so important, and then we’d ask the kids to find a story in their background that inspires them to follow their dreams and turn it into a film, lasting no more than 5 minutes, that we then showed on the massive cinema screen at BFI. So, Findmypast, MyHeritage and Ancestry were all sponsors of the project, and Findmypast got in touch with me during COVID to say ‘We’re launching 11 million Scottish records. We know you’re in Outlander playing a slave. There’s a very interesting story about a slave called Scipio Kennedy, who married a local Scottish girl in 1702’. And so, they said it would be lovely if you could tell his story because it’s a great way of highlighting the power of these records, because he had 8 Scottish children who can be traced through those records to the present day. And I was like, ‘Wow, I’ve never heard of this guy’. So, of course, I then went down a rabbit hole of research and went ‘Oh my goodness, he’s so similar to Ulysses but he’s a lot earlier’. So, I think 1702 is when he’s first bought and then brought to Scotland in 1706, around then? It’s much earlier than in Outlander when we’re in the 1760s, 1770s when we discover Ulysses.

[JB]
Yes, so you’re post-Jacobite rebellion and you’re post-Culloden. Ok, so you’re playing a character and you’ve done as much research as you can, then you find out about the real-life Scipio and then this ignites something in you personally?

[CM]
Yeah, because I took in two Scottish children. About 10 years ago, their mother died of cancer; I never knew her. The mother was Scottish; the father was English. The father turned his back on the children, and my son, who’s about 2 or 3 years older, told me about the eldest boy Johnny. He was at school with him with some of his friends in Lincoln, and my son said ‘Oh, he’s having a really tough time; his father’s turned his back on him and he’s lost his mother, can he stay the weekend?’ It started off as that and then he stayed the next weekend and so on, until – I met him when he was 16 – when he turned 18, he’d moved in with us. And along the way, he said ‘I have a sister’. And I was like ‘What? Sorry? Where’s she?’ ‘Oh, she’s at the girls’ boarding school and we never really see each other.’ I said, ‘Well, she’d better come over’. So, she – I met her at 14 – and when she turned 16, she said ‘Can I live with you too?’ So, I’ve ended up with two Scottish children, and since that point, everything Scottish, ridiculously, has come towards me! It was no surprise that Outlander followed and no surprise that I found Scipio. There you are.

[JB]
And what about your own links? I take it that in Findmypast, you started finding out about Colin McFarlane’s past.

[CM]
Indeed, because I was going into schools and saying to the children: ‘The reason we’re doing family history – children, do you know what family history is?’ And they’d all go, ‘No’. And I’d say ‘Well, first of all, do you know that the average person starts doing their family history at age 55? What happens then, children? Your mother and father might not be here; your grandparents certainly aren’t going to be here. Then your key resource has gone.’ Now, I can’t get beyond my grandparents. I’d then turn to the teacher and go, ‘Is it alright to talk to them about slavery?’ Because, of course, it’s not taught in schools. And so, I’d then have to explain to the children I have the surname McFarlane, but of course my ancestors wouldn’t have been born with that name; that’s a plantation owner. And the kids would be looking blank and you’d have to explain that we came over from Africa to the Caribbean – my parents are Jamaican – and so when they were freed, they took their master’s surname, which would have been McFarlane. But I can’t get beyond my grandparents.

Then, when I get asked to do this talk on Scipio, my wife (who does a bit of family history) said to me, ‘Why don’t you ask Findmypast if they can help you get a bit further with your own family history, as a kind of reward for doing this event for them?’ And I said, ‘That’s a nice idea’. So, I spoke to one of their researchers, Myko Clelland, told him the story and he said, ‘Do you have anything to go on?’ And I said, ‘Not a lot; I can’t get past my grandparents. But there is a family rumour about a doctor in the family’. There can’t be a real doctor because my parents were not about the money, and neither were my grandparents, so they must be referring to the plantation owner; perhaps there was a Dr McFarlane. And he said, ‘Where was your family from?’ I said, ‘Montego Bay in Jamaica’. He said, ‘Look, leave it with me. I happen to be at the National Archives today.’ I went, ‘Are you joking?’ And he said ‘Nope! They have quite a lot of records on Jamaica. We do have access to slave records: we can see where they were bought, when they were bought, how much they cost. Let me have a look if there is anything on McFarlanes.’ He then rings me back excitedly about two hours later, going ‘I think I’ve found where your ancestors are from!’ I was like, ‘What?’ ‘There’s only one Scottish McFarlane clan that … it was a doctor. He actually died in 1837 on his way back to Scotland, but I’m pretty sure this is your ancestor.’

And then a few days later, he rang me up and sent me a copy of what he believes to be the first freed McFarlane slave’s manumission letter, which was the document proving your freedom. And of course, this happened whilst I was still researching Scipio and he’d only just sent me Scipio’s own manumission letter, which was from 1725. So, of course, the parallel was incredibly spooky. I thought, ‘This is getting crazy’. And he said, ‘Well, if you really want to be absolutely sure, get your DNA done. But do it with Ancestry because they do a lot of Afro-Caribbean history. We do DNA at Findmypast but it’s not as good, not for someone of a black background.’

So, I did it. And two or three months later, I found out that I have Scottish ancestry. I think I’m 91% West African, no surprise, from various different countries. But actually, there’s 9% European and 6% of that – surprise, surprise – is Scottish.

[JB]
Incredible. What a collision of fiction and real-life fact, and how very, very personal.

[CM]
Yep.

[JB]
Are you still playing Ulysses?

[CM]
No, I finished. I did Seasons 4 and 5, and what the producers always say with Outlander is they leave the door open, because they often do flashbacks and bring characters back. You never quite know if you’re finished. I think they’re now doing Season 7 at the moment, and they’ve literally just done an announcement about bringing back about seven characters who’ve been in the show before, who also assumed that they’d finished! And then I got a message, just before they started Season 6, from the writer of the books – Diana Gabaldon – saying Ulysses isn’t quite finished with yet. And I said, ‘Sorry?’. And she said, ‘I’m bringing him back in the books’. She then sent me an extract from her latest book called Go Tell the Bees That I am Gone, which I think is the ninth Outlander book. Ulysses comes back but he’s actually, in the depiction on TV, quite loveable, very sensitive and hugely loyal to Jocasta, who he is secretly in love with and, as I say, in the books has an affair with – on the TV, more just hinted at. We see a very nice, warm, loveable character trying to survive in this very strange time. And in the book, it makes it very clear that had he been white, he would have married Jocasta, because behind the scenes in the books, Ulysses looks after the entire plantation. He does all the accounts; he basically runs the whole place. But of course, he can’t be seen to be doing that publicly because of the time he’s in.

[JB]
So, you and your agent have everything crossed that Ulysses certainly comes back in the TV shows. And there’s going to be another coincidence because there’s going to be another character in Outlander – certainly, he’s in the books – a slave called Scipio.

[CM]
Correct. And Diana Gabaldon, the author of the books, and I often send little Twitter messages to each other, private messages. When I told her about Scipio Kennedy, I asked her ‘Had you heard of him?’ And so, she – I’ll read you the little tweet she sent me – where she says: ‘Anyway, switching momentarily to Scipio Kennedy, no I hadn’t come across him before, largely because he occurred mostly before the period I was dealing with. But oddly enough, Go Tell the Bees [which is her latest book] does have a Scipio who occurs with Ulysses. This one is a free man, a Gullah, who joins His Majesty’s Company of Black Pioneers [have you heard of them?]. Having occasion to poke about in Gullah history culture, at least briefly, one of the things I learned was that Scipio, often reduced to Sipio, was a very common name in those communities. I did wonder where it originated. From my hasty Google of Scipio Kennedy, I don’t see any Gullah connections – but it was a popular name, and still is apparently’. And on she goes. But yes, there is a Scipio in the latest book, who I think is a corporal – Corporal Scipio Jackson is her new character’s name.

[JB]
Well, that is really interesting. And in fact, I think we have an Outlander exclusive, or at least a potential exclusive, there! So, Colin, thank you very much for joining us. I wish you well. Fingers crossed with Outlander and with all your other projects.

[CM]
My pleasure. Thank you, Scipio, for somehow sending us this message from 1702 or something, that he was here in Scotland. To think that he was here all those years ago and we are talking about him in 2022 is really quite incredible, so it’s a pleasure to be able to help get that message and that story out there.

[JB]
Scipio’s great legacy. And thank you once again to Hannah Lawrence. You can read Hannah’s full blog series on the NTS website by searching for Scipio Kennedy. More information on the Scipio trail will be released as that project progresses. You can also find out more about Culzean Castle on the Trust website or by looking at the show notes for this episode. Plus, if you scroll back on your Love Scotland podcast feed, you’ll find our episode on Culzean’s smuggler caves. But that’s all from me for now. Until next time, goodbye.

[MV]

Love Scotland is brought to you by Think and Demus Productions, on behalf of the National Trust for Scotland. Presented by Jackie Bird. For show notes and more information, go to nts.org.uk and don’t forget to like, subscribe, review and share.