Hosted by journalist and broadcaster Jackie Bird, each episode of our Love Scotland podcasts tells some of the thrilling stories behind the Trust’s people and places, showcasing how everything we do is for the love of Scotland.
The Munros: mountain myths and milestones
Transcript
Five speakers: male voiceover [MV]; Jackie Bird [JB]; Andrew Dempster [AD]; female voiceover [FV]; Andrew Warwick [AW]
[MV]
Love Scotland, brought to you from the National Trust for Scotland; presented by Jackie Bird.
[JB]
‘Let me say that I look back upon the days I have spent in pursuing this quest as among the best spent days of my life. Amid the strange beauty and wild grandeur of rock face and snow slope, scaling tops where literally almost foot hath never afore time trod, I have indeed come face to face with the sacred sanctities of nature. And he would be indeed dull of heart who could see her beauties thus unfolded, feel her hand on his brow, her breath on his cheek? Who could see and feel that unmoved?’
Hello and welcome to Love Scotland. Those were the words of the Reverend A E Robertson, who we’ll hear more about later. He was describing a uniquely Scottish outdoor pursuit, one which takes in a gamut of abilities, from strenuous strolls to superhuman tests of fitness and endurance. We are talking Munro bagging.
Now, if this description leaves you in the dark, or if you already have a few under your belt but wondered about the origins and people who’ve been consumed by the cult of the Munros down the years, you’ve come to the right place. There are currently 282 Munros in Scotland, that is mountains over 3,000 feet. And the National Trust for Scotland hosts 46 of them, stretching from Ben Lomond to Torridon. My guest today is familiar with them all, and then some. His recent birthday treat was to climb them all for the third time. Andrew Dempster – congratulations! Is that the right word?
[AD]
Yes, I suppose it is! But thank you very much for your introduction.
[JB]
Well done you! Now, you’ve written extensively about Scotland’s landscape and I’ve just finished your recent book, The Munros: A History. I don’t really know what I was expecting – I suppose it was just a list of great climbs and views, and I got all that. But what I also got was a slice of social history and some fascinating characters predominantly. The mountains seem to attract mavericks. Is that fair?
[AD]
Yes, they do, but also I think they attract normal people from everyday life who just enjoy climbing hills. And I was one of those people many years ago. I completed my first round of the Munros in 1988, and I started climbing Munros on Ben Lomond in 1978. That was my first Munro. And since then, the Munro phenomenon, if you like, has accelerated and it’s gone from a trickle to a torrent. It’s incredible now; 7,000 people have climbed all the Munros, and rising.
[JB]
You wrote a forerunner to this book, and you say you wanted to re-evaluate the book’s – and I’m quoting – ‘aims and conclusions’. Now, that’s intriguing.
[AD]
Well, The Munro Phenomenon came out in 1995. And when I write books, I always like to find a gap in the market. And to me, there was a gap in the market as regards Munros. There were plenty of Munros guidebooks even then. There was at least two or three Munro guidebooks out then, and now there’s about 7 or 8. But there had never been a book written about the people who climb Munros, and the compulsions and the philosophy behind the pursuit. So, I decided there and then. I had already written a book, Classic Mountain Scrambles in Scotland, and I was looking for an idea for another book. And this came about, The Munro Phenomenon, and that did reasonably well.
But obviously, that was nearly 30 years ago. It was in the COVID lockdown I decided this book drastically needs an update, so I decided there and then that I would do another. Not The Munro Phenomenon repeated, but a book similar to that. The Munros: A History came out a few years later.
[JB]
It is super, and it’s got so much more – as I said in the introduction – because it’s also about class; it’s about social changes; it’s about economic changes and how that’s impacted on the people who take to the mountains, which we will touch on later. But let’s begin with the entry level stuff, because this is a chat for all. For complete newcomers: what is a Munro specifically? How is it classified, and why is Scotland so well served?
[AD]
Well, a Munro is … it sounds easy to state it’s any mountain in Scotland over 3,000 feet. And because Hugh Munro himself, who classified the Munros, he did not leave any specific criteria as to what he regarded as being a Munro. So, we are left in the lurch here, and lots of people have been putting their oar in and deciding for themselves what Munro might have meant. And someone else says the opposite!
[JB]
Let’s talk about Hugh Munro, the latterly Sir Hugh Munro, born in 1856. Who was he and what led him to the hills?
[AD]
He came from fairly well-to-do stock. He was the son of a landowner, Lindertis Estate up near Kirriemuir, and he travelled about a lot. He didn’t join the SMC I think until 1889.
[JB]
SMC?
[AD]
The Scottish Mountaineering Club. He spent part of his time in London, but he also spent a lot of his time up in Kirriemuir, and obviously that’s quite near the hills. So, he had plenty of time to explore the hills, and I think he just grew into a love of climbing and walking. All that started, I think, in Germany. He was on holiday in Germany and the Alps and Switzerland. And that was the big thing that got him started.
It just takes over your life. I mean, I know from experience that when you start climbing Munros, it becomes a bit of a compulsion. But of course, at that time, he was just trying to work out a list. People didn’t call them Munros then. He was the one that actually produced the list. So, he was on a mission to try and find out exactly how many 3,000ft mountains there were in Scotland and produce the ultimate list.
[JB]
But what about the figure of 3,000 feet? Was that just arbitrary?
[AD]
I think it was in some ways. I think, in my book, I remember explaining that if you look at the height of the original plateau in Scotland, but long, long, many years ago, millions of years ago, there was a huge mountain chain that was worn down. And the worn-down remnants of this mountain chain were around about 3,000ft high. And then of course, when the successive ice ages came in and cut into that 3,000ft plain, you’re left with mountains which are round about 3,000ft high.
And often when you stand on a Munro and you look out and you see other summits, they’re all of that same level. Again, it’s just a nice round figure. To be honest, it sounds good: 3,000 feet. The measurement of foot came from the Romans and the Greeks, so in some ways you could say they’re responsible for the Munros that we see today.
[JB]
So, in the mid/late 1800s, how many Munros did he find and how did he formalise this?
[AD]
He wasn’t just interested in the actual summits over 3,000 feet. He was also looking at what we now call ‘subsidiary tops’, which are subsidiary summits over 3,000 feet but they’re not classified as separate Munros. And if you include all these, you come to a figure of well over 500. So, his aim, his mission was to try and classify all these as well. It was only later really that the specific Munros that we call today Munros are the 282 that people want to climb.
And it’s sad in a way that an awful lot of people that do it today don’t bother with doing the tops. They’re just happy with the minimum requirements of 282 Munros, and they don’t bother with the other 200-odd tops as well.
[JB]
We have Munros, and we have a Munroist. What’s that?
[AD]
A Munroist is basically someone who’s climbed all the Munros.
[JB]
And the first Munroist, if I’m correct, was the chap I quoted at the beginning: the Reverend Robertson, whose eloquent words. And then following closely behind him, there was another reverend, a Reverend Burn, who was the first person to climb the Munros and the tops. Why so many men of the cloth? Because there are quite a few in your book.
[AD]
Yeah, well again, that was a rhetorical question in the book. Was there any reason why the first two Munroists were both reverends? And again, is it to do with the fact that maybe reverends are closer to heaven, and I lift my eyes to the hills, and all this kind of stuff? Or is it maybe they’ve just got more free time, like teachers?!
[JB]
You speak as a former maths teacher!
[AD]
I’m not sure entirely, but it’s probably got something to do with both those things and more.
[JB]
This is where your book I find gets particularly interesting, because you’re talking about the climbers in the late 1800s and it’s a very different Scottish Highlands from what it is today. It’s that golden age of travel: far more rail links, and a lot of the crumbling bothies that we see by the roadsides today, they were inhabited. You could traverse the landscape and meet people.
[AD]
Well, that’s one of the things which really fascinated me about the early Munroists, particularly Hugh Munro and Heddle, that we’ll probably come to later, and Robertson and Burn – it was that they all preferred doing long multi-day jaunts into the hills unencumbered by having to return to a car. And in some ways today, the car is almost a bugbear because you’ve got to return to a car. You drive somewhere. The natural thing to do today is you drive to near a Munro, you climb the Munro and you come back to your car and drive home.
In those days, the advent of the car was only just coming in. So, in a sense, there was more freedom to just go off and travel about – and you could stay overnight with people in the hills and the glens. There were often cottages occupied by keepers and crofters and shepherds, and that’s where these people stayed. They were often given a great welcome because some of these people wouldn’t have seen anyone for maybe months. They were quite glad to put people up. And often these cottages now, a lot of them will be bothies, as you’ve already mentioned. Camping wasn’t a big thing then. You think of the weight of camping gear in those days – people would not think about wandering about in the hills carrying a huge tent.
So, in some ways, the early pioneers did have a golden age of travel in the Highlands. The rail links were better, and they often could get boats sailing up lochs and deposit them in a remote place. There were no enlarged reservoirs formed by hydroelectric, so some of the Munros were far more approachable than they are today. So yeah, they didn’t have it too bad.
[JB]
No, they didn’t. Now, you mentioned Heddle. That’s Matthew Foster Heddle. He was born about 30 years before Hugh Munro, but you believe he’s been overlooked.
[AD]
He has. That was one of the spurs really that made me write this book, because I was looking online one day and I saw this book by his great-great-grandson and it had just come out in 2015, I think. He was saying that Heddle was a way ahead of the game as regards climbing Munros, and he was a contemporary of Hugh Munro. I tried to look in SMC and I couldn’t see anything about this Heddle. I was fascinated and I bought the book, and I really don’t understand how he has just fallen into this trough of obscurity, that he’s become this person that no one talks about. Even in the latest edition of the SMC Guide to the Munros, he’s not mentioned in the introduction at all.
[JB]
Was he listing the Munros too?
[AD]
It was almost certain that he had a list of 409 Munros because at one point he said he’d done 350 tops in Scotland. Obviously, because he’d mentioned this, people were thinking, well, where is this list that he has? He must have a list. And no one has ever found this list. Munro himself complimented Heddle on being such a way ahead of the game, that he climbed more 3,000ft mountains in Scotland than anyone … way more. I think it was only because he became ill in his later life and he couldn’t really do any more climbing that he didn’t finish them. I think if that had not been the case, I am sure that Heddle would have been the first Munroist and would have got far more publicity.
[JB]
People could have been climbing Heddles.
[AD]
Yes, well, possibly!
[JB]
He sounds like a fascinating character. Born 1828, he was a doctor. He was a geologist, professor of chemistry – trained Britain’s first female doctor. But as you say, just by that quirk of fate, we are not climbing Heddles now. So many of the early Munroists were polymaths. They were extraordinary people. They had strengths; they were scientists; they were endurance sportsmen. When I say men, what about women? Because in your book you describe the Munro baggers in the early days of the 1930s and 40s – we’ve moved on a bit – as ‘a male-dominated brotherhood with a classist and sexist tradition’. Oooh, that’s harsh!
[AD]
Well, that was the SMC. I think those words are probably pretty accurate. In those days the SMC were very sexist, very classist. They didn’t allow any women into the Scottish Mountaineering Club.
[JB]
They didn’t allow women?
[AD]
No, it was only men that were …
[JB]
What, because women didn’t have any legs to climb?
[AD]
I think they do now. There was a Ladies’ Scottish Climbing Club formed in 1908 and so they were catered for from then on. But they didn’t seem to think that men and women climbing mountains together was a good idea. The whole thing seems very strange.
[JB]
All those boots and beards. So, when did women make their mark?
[AD]
I think it was probably with a Mrs P Hirst, who was married to a Mr Hirst, who was in the SMC. She became the first woman Munroist in 1947. The first 9 Munroists were all men; it was very male-dominated up to that time. But even probably after then, there were still very few women that would be climbing Munros.
[JB]
I suppose the interwar years, where money was tight, held a bit of a silver lining because it became more popular for working class men and maybe a few women to take to the hills too.
[AD]
In the depressed years of the 30s, working class people who were on the dole found that time hung heavy with them during the week when they weren’t going off to work, so a lot of them would just escape to the hills. They would think, oh, that’s one thing that I’d like to get – freedom from this economic depression. And you can imagine some of them looking out their tenement block in Glasgow and seeing the Campsie Fells hanging on the horizon over the smog of the city, and thinking it’d be lovely to go there.
And of course, they were only 10 miles away, so a lot of them could easily escape to there. And then of course, Ben Lomond was literally 15/20 miles from Glasgow as well. That’s the most southerly Munro. So yes, there were an awful lot of working class people, in particular people like Jock Nimlin and Tom Weir and Alastair Borthwick, all these quite well-known ones. But there were thousands of others who just took sanctuary in the hills and enjoyed the escape, and then went back to sign on the dole maybe once a week.
[JB]
And finally, just before we take a break, did the inception of the Youth Hostelling Association in the early 30s, did that help? Did that encourage more younger people?
[AD]
It did. But again, the real working class people just preferred to be living in what they called howffs, which were kind of caves, and they didn’t really have much money. They slept on newspapers; they made their own sleeping bags. There were a certain section of society that found youth hostels a good idea, but again it was to do with money. These places cost money. And obviously the people on the dole didn’t really have much at all. They were quite glad just to be anywhere, get their head down anywhere.
[JB]
Well, let’s take a quick break from the hills for just a moment. And when we come back, Andrew Dempster, we’ll talk about how the cult of the Munros has continued to evolve, and the weird and wonderful attempts to tame them.
[FV]
When you dedicate a tree with the National Trust for Scotland, you are remembering the good times spent outside, making a commitment to Scotland’s nature, helping our charity plant tomorrow’s woodlands, and giving something that will last for generations to come.
Dedicate a tree for yourself, a loved one, or for Scotland’s woodlands.
You’ll receive a personalised certificate and your own message in our virtual woodland.
Dedicate a tree by donating from £7.50 at nts.org.uk/tree
[JB]
Welcome back to the Love Scotland podcast. Today we’re reaching the heady and majestic heights of Scotland’s mountain landscape. Specifically, it’s Munros and the people drawn to climb them. Now, let me quote you this, Andrew Dempster:
‘I have emerged from a world of monochromatic monotony to a higher plane of resplendent technicolour and clarity that seemingly stretches out to infinite horizons. But I’ve also been transformed from a sluggardly gloomy merchant to a buoyant, revitalised hillwalker, skipping and dancing along with a fresh spring in my step.’
Your words, as you well know! Is that representative of how you feel when you’re out there?
[AD]
On some occasions! I think the language there maybe got a bit too flowery, but I love …
[JB]
I disagree; I think it’s lovely. Because you do describe, I think it was a hard climb – your head was down; you didn’t quite fancy it. But then you reached …
[AD]
It was just that feeling of getting out of the cloud. I’d been in thick cloud for a good few hours and I had this feeling that it was never really going to lift. But it was one of those magical days when you come out of the cloud, you rise out of this constricting grey mass, and you’re up and you see blue sky and you think, oh, wonderful! And then you go up a bit further and there’s just a sea of cloud with peaks rising up above. I think any hillwalker will know that that is one of those magical occasions, which happen now and again. It’s wonderful to experience it. The problem is, you’re never quite sure when there will be what’s called a temperature inversion. That’s when you can get above the cloud. But in that particular case, I was very, very surprised. I really thought I was going to be walking in cloud for the whole day.
[JB]
Because anytime I’ve ever been up a hill and it’s been fairly strenuous and it’s been very cloudy, you get to the top and you know what? It’s still cloudy and you can’t really see very much! Isn’t it amazing to think that Hugh Munro and the contemporaries, even until the early part of the 20th century, managed to achieve what they did, wearing clothes that we would find laughable now, and without all the technology we have now?
[AD]
Well, even when I started out hillwalking, I can remember wearing what I call britches, plus fours. They weren’t tweedy, but they were quite heavy wool or woollen garments that came down to just below your knee. And then you had long socks and you had these buttons on them, and gaiters. Of course, we still have gaiters now, but you never see anyone now in britches.
But when you think of what these guys used to wear: heavy britches and kilts and capes and all sorts of things. Everything very heavy, but they’d be warm. But the warmth-to-weight ratio was terrible when you look at the gear they have today.
[JB]
What about the technology? Great as it is, do you think it’s given us sometimes a false sense of security?
[AD]
Absolutely, yeah. I think people now – I’m not saying everyone – but there are people now going up on the hills with GPS and satellite phones and all this stuff, and they don’t have a clue how to use a map and a compass. If any of this technology goes wrong, which can happen quite often, they’re lost. And then they phone mountain rescue. I know there are far more cases of people getting rescued off the hills today than there were in the past. I’m sure it’s because of technology – people just accepting that technology will get them out of the situation. It’s so easy to phone mountain rescue or dial 999, even for people who are maybe not in a particularly dangerous situation. It’s so easy to do that. So yes, I think technology in a way has detracted from safety in the hills. I think it’s got worse.
[JB]
Because we often see in guidebooks ‘this is an easy Munro’, but the mountain rescue and the police often say there are no easy Munros. It’s Scotland and things can change.
[AD]
The weather can change just like that. I’m retired now, so I can easily just look at the forecast. I only go out on days when I know that the weather is going to be settled for the whole day. But you do get people that have maybe travelled for hundreds of miles. They might have just travelled up from England for a few days to do some Munros and they’ve got no Plan B. They’re just doing these Munros as what they want to do, and regardless of the weather, they’ll go up.
I just wouldn’t even dream of setting off to climb a Munro if it was raining and the mist was down. I just don’t see the point of that at all.
[JB]
That’s really interesting. Even you.
[AD]
I used to, in the past – certainly when I was finishing my first round of the Munros, there were occasions when I maybe had 20 Munros still to do and the weather … I knew I had to get these finished because I’d arranged the date for the last Munro and had to get these done. So, I went off in horrible conditions and squelching through bogs and the rain coming down – it was awful!
[JB]
There is a lot of humour in your book and a lot of self-mockery, because you talk about the varying degrees of Munro-itis, which begins with ‘a sudden unhealthy interest in books, woolly hats and the latest breathable garments’! And then you start to list some of these amazing people and how they have managed to complete all the Munros. The couples who complete them together; we’ve already spoken about the Hirsts. The night walkers, people who complete … that doesn’t sound at all safe.
[AD]
It’s something that I’ve often thought might be worth giving a try. I have a friend who climbs Munros by moonlight. He reckons he’s done Ben Lomond 200 or 300 times. He used to do it every night on the Wednesday night and I’ve often been invited to come with him on this.
[JB]
Some people watch Coronation Street; he goes up a Munro!
[AD]
Maybe if I tried it … I’m probably getting too long in the tooth now, to be honest, going up Munros in the dark. But I’m often worried about just tripping. Obviously, if it’s dark, you’re not really seeing where your foot placements are. You would have a head torch, but I think I’m too old now to think about that. I can understand why people want to do it. And the thing about being on top of a mountain and watching the sunrise – that would be incredible. I think I’ve only bivvied on a mountain a couple of times and seen that, but that’s quite something to behold.
[JB]
In terms of the current breed of super-Munroists, if I can call them that, who managed to traverse the country on foot, by bike or swim, who impresses you? What do you think of those endeavours?
[AD]
Somebody who’s done all the Munros in a continuous expedition, I’ve always held this fascination about that and a slight feeling of awe and almost like a ‘I’d like to do’. Certainly in my younger days, I seriously did think about trying to do all the Munros in a single trip. Not trying to break any records, but just for the fun of it.
[JB]
What is the record?
[AD]
You see, you’re now getting into fell running. But originally when Hamish Brown did a single round of the Munros, he was about 112 days. And he wasn’t trying to … well, he couldn’t break records then because he was the first person to have done it. But he wasn’t trying to do them in as fast a time as possible; he was just wanting to enjoy the experience. It’s only over the years that gradually people have wanted to see how fast someone can do all the Munros and of course, fell runners.
Now, Donnie Campbell – I think he was mentioned in my book – and he had done them in under 32 days. And I remember saying in my Munro Phenomenon book that the big challenge would be to do all the Munros in a month, and not really thinking that that was possible. But then this Donnie Campbell came along, and he’s done them in under 32 days. And now a woman has actually beaten that record, under the time that Donnie Campbell did them. I think it’s 10 hours or 15 hours less. And her name is Jamie Aarons. So, a woman has now broken the record.
[JB]
That’ll teach the Scottish mountaineering lot not to allow women into their ranks.
[AD]
Yes! Another woman has also beaten the winter round record. Again, there are some people that want to try and do all the Munros in the winter months, and a woman has now just done them in 83 days – Anna Wells. That’s the same time as Martin Moran, who was the first person to do them in winter.
[JB]
Well done the girls! You have completed, as I said, three entire rounds. How do you celebrate your last Munro of a round? Is there a tradition?
[AD]
There usually is. For most people, it seems, champagne seems to be the big thing, but when I did my last one a few weeks ago, yeah, there was champagne. There was also some whisky involved and there was lots of M&S party food: sausages and chocolate and all sorts of things. So, we’re kind of staggering down the hill after that! There was lots of people there and it was a fun occasion. Couldn't see anything! The mist was right down. Unfortunately, that day out of my three completions, that was probably the worst day weather-wise – couldn’t see a thing from the top.
[JB]
There’s a sense of elation, but there’s also a sort of plummeting of emotions because you write from your diary: ‘the end of an era has come. So much water has passed under the bridge, so many happy memories. It has meant so much for so long. The challenge now lies dormant.’ Is that a sense when you manage to complete something as awesome as that?
[AD]
There was a sense of … it’s a mixed sense of elation and also slight depression that you finished them all. And what do I do now? Of course, it wasn’t long after that I decided to go on and do the Corbetts; I had to have another challenge. I’m the kind of person that’s driven by challenges. I like to have something, like I’m working my way around the coastline of Britain just now in chunks. I like to have something that I can get my teeth into and that I enjoy doing and that I can write about afterwards. It’s just what keeps me going.
[JB]
We’ve talked about the rise of ‘taking to the hills’ and we’ve talked about the peak period, no pun intended. What’s the situation now? Because it was very popular for the Baby Boomer generation, what’s the current situation and what’s the future?
[AD]
There was a huge surge in Munro bagging from about the 70s onwards, and it was rising exponentially. Now it’s settled down, maybe roughly 200 people a year completing the Munros. So, there’s a steady increase in the number of people who’ve done all the Munros, and I think that will continue. It’s a very popular pursuit and I hope it is in the future. I’m hoping it continues to be; I don’t see why it shouldn’t be. It’s something which will continue to fascinate people, I think, throughout the years. I’d be very surprised if the number of Munro baggers per year started to decrease and the activity became less popular.
[JB]
And Hugh Munro, the man who started it all or at least formalised it, he died in 1919 at the age of 63. Did he manage to complete them all?
[AD]
He didn’t. He still had three left to do. He had one planned quite near his Lindertes estate that he planned to keep for his last one, which ironically now is only a Munro top. It’s a subsidiary top, not an actual Munro. Another one on Skye, the Inaccessible Pinnacle, which is commonly regarded as being the hardest Munro; he still had that to do. And there was one other one, Càrn an Fhìdhleir, which he hadn’t done either. So no, he didn’t; he still had three to do.
[JB]
That’s a shame, but at least his name lives on. We can’t let you go without getting the benefit of all that experience and knowledge. As I said at the start, the Trust has 46 Munros in its properties. Can you talk about a few of them that you’re particularly keen on, or that you would recommend?
[AD]
Well, the first one that comes to mind, I suppose, is Ben Lomond, the most southerly Munro, which was my first Munro. It’s commonly often the first Munro of many people. In fact, many people would climb Ben Lomond, not even having heard about Munros. They would just climb and think, oh, that’s a nice hill. And then they might look across and say possibly let’s do some other hills.
[JB]
It’s a gateway drug, then, Ben Lomond.
[AD]
Yeah. My favourite Munro, I think, in the NTS Munros would be Beinn Alligin in Torridon. I just love Torridon, and I think probably most other hill walkers would agree that Torridon is a fantastic area. Superb mountains, great scrambling and what we call steep pointy mountains rather than flat top ones like the Cairngorms. And that’s always been my preference. Beinn Alligin in Torridon is definitely one of my favourite Munros, and I haven’t been up it for nearly 30 years, so it’s due another ascent.
[JB]
So, it’s probably calling you. Well, Andrew Dempster, thank you for your time and wonderful insight. Andrew’s book, The Munros: A History, is published by Luath and is a great companion on those hills. Andrew, thank you.
[AD]
Thank you very much.
[JB]
And if you love to take to the hills, look out for a previous episode of Love Scotland called Mountain Birds, where I head for Ben Lawers and the hunt for the elusive ring ouzel.
[AW]
There, right on the horizon, just landed on the top of the rock. You see it, it’s on the horizon. On that there’s a rock. Yeah, yeah. That’s a ring ouzel!
[JB]
And that’s all from this edition of Love Scotland. We’ll be back with more very soon. Until then, goodbye.
[MV]
Love Scotland is brought to you by Think and Demus Productions, on behalf of the National Trust for Scotland; presented by Jackie Bird. For show notes and more information, go to nts.org.uk and don’t forget to like, subscribe, review and share.
How many have you bagged? Mountaineers and hikers from across the UK and beyond have flocked to Scotland to take on the Munros (Scottish peaks more than 3,000ft high) ever since the list of such mountains was created by Sir Hugh Munro in 1891.
The National Trust for Scotland cares for 46 Munros, including Ben Lomond, Ben Lawers, Ben Macdui and Torridon’s Spidean a’Choire Léith. Jackie sits down with Andrew Dempster, author of The Munros: A History, to trace the ever-increasing popularity of Munro bagging.
Who was the first to complete all 282 peaks? What new records continue to be set? And what is it about Hugh Munro’s list that has so captured the public imagination?
This podcast was first released in July 2024.
Keeping the outdoors great
Transcript
Three voices: male voiceover (MV); Jackie Bird (JB); Scott McCombie (SM)
[MV] Love Scotland
Brought to you by the National Trust for Scotland
[JB]
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Love Scotland.
Glencoe is one of the most famous glens in Scotland. Its mountains were formed through violent volcanic eruptions, sculpted by massive glaciers and are said to be the home of legendary Celtic hero Fingal, where his poet son Ossian found inspiration in the striking landscape.
Then there’s its infamous past, notably the Massacre of Glencoe in 1692.
So, overall, Glencoe is a place of history, wildlife, adventure and myth.
And it’s all part of Scotland’s identity.
Now with the onset of warmer weather and brighter days, Glencoe welcomes more visitors in the spring and summer months than any other time of year, meaning the National Trust for Scotland and its rangers are busier than ever in their mission to protect and preserve the renowned landscape, its wildlife and fragile biodiversity.
So how does the Trust rise to the challenge of caring for Glencoe in its busiest season? Well, I’m at Glencoe today to find out just that.
And I’m in the good hands of Scott McCombie, Senior Ranger with the National Trust for Scotland.
Hello to you, Scott.
[SM]
Hi Jackie.
[JB]
Describe where we are.
[SM]
Well, we’re here, we’re maybe 50 yards away from the visitor centre in Glencoe and we’re looking kind of south-east towards the glen itself.
So, we’ve got the start of the Three Sisters, Bidean nam Bian and all the hills through there, with the Aonach Eagach – this is the end peak of the Aonach Eagach just towering above us here.
[JB]
And the Three Sisters … for people who are not entirely familiar, what are the Three Sisters?
[SM]
Well, the one that we can see here is Aonach Dubh, that’s the most westerly of the Three Sisters …
[JB]
So, it’s a ridge, is it?
[SM]
It’s a ridge that runs off the mountain itself, up in the cloud – we can’t see the peak actually – is Bidean nam Bian, so that’s there. And the Three Sisters are kind of ridges that run off the peak at the south of it. So you’ve got Aonach Dubh that we can see from here, and then you have Gearr Aonach in the middle, and Beinn Fhada the furthest east of the three.
[JB]
It’s absolutely beautiful. How big is the area of Glencoe?
[SM]
Well, the Trust owns about 13,000 acres, just under 6,000 hectares, roughly from here, about 8/9 miles towards the east, towards the far side of Buachaille Etive Mor; then down Glen Etive for about 5/6 miles south from here …
[JB]
So roughly a square mileage?
[SM]
Um, 23/24 square miles.
[JB]
And how many rangers look after this place?
[SM]
There are 3 full-time rangers and then we try to get in a couple of volunteer rangers through the season, from Easter–October. Usually, young recent graduates of ecology, biology, something like that, looking to get some hands-on experience to add to their CV to go alongside their qualification.
[JB]
What’s your own background? How long have you been doing this?
[SM]
(chuckles) I’ve been here 20 years – I started here in June 2001. And then before that I had seasonal jobs at Mar Lodge with the Trust; I did part of a season at Loch Lomond; and 2 or 3/4 seasons in West Lothian in Almondell Country Park.
[JB]
Ah, so you’ve been about a bit!
[SM]
That’s one way of saying it, yes! (laughs)
[JB]
Ok! You’re going to take me on a walk today as we chat, but I’ll tell you why I’m sounding a wee bit trepidatious – there’s a stream here which I think we’re going to have to cross?
[SM]
That’s right.
[JB]
I’ve got boots on but I don’t know if they’re waterproof and I think we’re about to find out. Are you going first?
[SM]
Yeah I’ll go first, because I know mine are!
[JB]
So you go on the step first …
I wish you could see this because my producer’s trying to negotiate his way across first, holding a microphone and going backwards!
Looks like Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire – she had to do everything he did but backwards …
So! Is this the sort of walk that you would be taking visitors on in the spring/summer season?
[SM]
Yes, we have lots of guided walks, mainly low-level; we leave the high level to the more experienced folk. They either get an experienced mountain leader to take them as individuals, so the groups we tend to take on the low-level stuff around about here.
[JB]
What sort of numbers are you talking about in the busy season?
[SM]
Oh, well, the cars coming through … Transport Scotland have had a counter on the A82, and they’re saying something like 2.5 million vehicles drive through the glen on the A82 every year.
So, we have different counters at different points. So, in the visitor centre here, we’re looking at over 300,000 people coming into the visitor centre.
We’ve had a series of people counters on the hill paths, and you’re looking at over 150,000 just on the hill paths.
[JB]
So, the people who come here – you’ve got sightseers, as you say. And then you’ve got the seasoned hill walkers. But what about the people in between, the families, or people who are not quite as at home in the wide open spaces, who just want to come here to learn a bit?
[SM]
Yep, well, there’s the ranger service here. You’ll have the team in the visitor centre who can answer questions, and then we’re out and about on the estate as well. So, we’re happy to answer questions all year round. Or we have these low-level guided walks, and we have Land Rover Safaris that …
[JB]
Ooooh, now that sounds good! Before we get onto the Land Rover Safaris, we’re on Shanks’s Pony just now. So, what are we seeing? What would you be telling me as a visitor?
[SM]
Well, in here, the Trust bought this from then-Forestry Commission (Forest & Land Scotland as it is now) and this was solid conifers – you can see the conifers are still further up the hill.
[JB]
So, when did the Trust buy this?
[SM]
Mid-90s the Trust bought this, with the idea that we would build the visitor centre out of the middle of the glen. So, we bought this to build the centre here.
But this, that we’re in now, was solid Sitka spruce larch conifers – commercial, non-native species.
So, our plan was to chop all that down and replant with things like this here – this is a birch. And then we’ve got willows and alders all round about us.
So, these are all native species that hopefully would have been here in the past that we’ve brought back.
[JB]
And what sort of wildlife was here?
[SM]
Well, we’ve got roe deer down here in the woods, pine marten, badgers, stoats, all sorts of voles, bats, all round about the woods and the visitor centre. We’ve actually got bats in the roof space in the visitor centre! So, we’ve got all of that going on.
Out on the wider hill we have red deer and foxes; birds of prey – we’ve got buzzards, eagles, peregrines, merlin, all sorts of things.
[JB]
Ah! And what about the flora and fauna? Do you have to be an expert on that?
[SM]
We tend to be generalists about all sorts of things, so …
[JB]
You mean, you talk a good game!
[SM]
That’s the one, that’s the one. I’ve been accused of that before!
So, we’ve got a bit of birding knowledge, a bit of botanical knowledge, a bit of hill-walking knowledge and wee bits of history as well, so on the guided walks you’ll get hit with bits of all of that.
So, we’ll be identifying what plants we come across on the walk or when we stop the Land Rover at different parts through the glen; we’ll get out and we’ll be able to look and see what’s there … the tormentil, the bluebells …
[JB]
Yes, so tell me about the Land Rover Safari. How big is it and how many people get in it? How far do you go?
[SM]
Well, there’s room for 6 passengers, but just now we’re working out the COVID protocols for running them this summer. We’re probably going to be taking 4, maybe 5, if it’s all one ‘family bubble’, I think is the phrase that’s being used.
So that’s it for this year.
We do two different ones.
One’s an hour and a half long – we take this sort of western end of the property, finishing in the middle underneath the Three Sisters.
And then we do another one that’s about 3/3.5 hours long – and we will include all of this end, plus go down Glen Etive as well.
We own the top half of Glen Etive, so we’ll stop at just about Dalness, at the big house at Dalness.
[JB]
And what are visitors’ reactions? What are they most interested in? I mean obviously the scenery is absolutely striking.
[SM]
Scenery and animals – they want wildlife really. So, we try and get deer but certainly in the summer, as the weather gets better, they go higher so they’re more difficult to see. In the winter, if you were here, there’d be more of them lower down but in the summer, they’re higher up.
Birds of prey obviously, buzzards, they’re fairly regular; the eagles are less regular; peregrines you need to be high up into the corries themselves to see, so we don’t get the Land Rover up into the corries for obvious reasons!
[JB]
What about the types of visitors? I mean there must be people who are Scottish, for whom this is all absolutely new.
[SM]
Aye.
[JB]
And of course people from across the world. Do their reactions differ?
[SM]
No – I think if you’re not used to living here, whether it’s because you live in the Central Belt and you live in a busy, built-up area, whether that built-up area is Edinburgh or New York, you’re just amazed by the scenery that you find here.
And folk have the same kind of reaction – they’re just astounded by how beautiful it can look.
[JB]
Yes. It certainly is.
Now that’s very much your public face in the spring and summer – when you’re showing off your shop to people! But you’ve got a big job looking after the place. Now, does that grind to a halt in the spring/summer?
[SM]
No, because it has to go on at the same time. In the winter things don’t grow so much, so the habitat monitoring we do tends to happen more in the spring and summer when we can actually see what plants are growing! So that has to go on.
And also we get an influx of visitors, and while the vast majority are respectful and they leave no trace, there’s always unfortunately that minority who will have fires or leave waste of all types behind them.
So that needs to be tidied up and we have a bit of an education job there as well, trying to talk to people to encourage them to leave no trace rather than leave the mess behind.
[JB]
Ok, well I think this is probably a good point just to have a little break in our walk, because I’d like to find out some more about the Dos and Don’ts.
[MV]
From coastlines to castles, wildlife to wilderness, when you become a member of the National Trust for Scotland you can enjoy the very best of what Scotland has to offer.
But you can help protect it too.
The National Trust for Scotland is Scotland’s largest conservation charity. By becoming a member, you join thousands of others who are all playing their part to safeguard the places we hold dear for future generations.
Find out more about how to join and more about the Trust’s amazing stories, places and people online. Just search National Trust for Scotland.
[JB]
Welcome back.
I’m enjoying a walk along the Glencoe woodland with Senior Ranger Scott McCombie.
Scott, we’ve sort of reached the crest of a small hill here. I mean this is quite a gentle walk – are all the walks like this?
[SM]
Pretty much here, at the visitor centre anyway, we are dialled in to help visitors here, although we can’t make everything absolutely flat. I mean, the landscape’s just not going to allow that, but we’ve got immediately around about the visitor centre we have all-ability paths, but here once we’re out into the woods we have to just deal with the landscape really. And there is a bit of incline here, but not much.
So, gentle walking rather than all-abilities, which is immediately at the visitor centre.
[JB]
And talking of all-abilities, you can see through the trees a high-vis jacket – a mountain biker!
[SM]
Our woodland juts onto Forest & Land Scotland’s land, so the forest road snakes all the way up the hill to the summit that you can see up there with a mast.
So, the roads go all the way up there, so folk on their bikes can get as much steepness as they like really – so it goes all the way up there …
But our ground stops pretty much at the road there, so we’ve replanted with all the natives below that and then you can see the rest of the conifers that Forest & Land still have.
[JB]
You obviously love having visitors here and showcasing the place, but is there a certain amount of trepidation each time the busy season comes round, because there’s so much footfall?
[SM]
Yeees, there’s always that element as I said there – the minority, really, and they are a minority – that leave a mess behind them when they go, and it’s just one of those parts of the job that’s always been here …
[JB]
Well, we passed the remnants of a fire as we walked up.
[SM]
Unfortunately, yes. Somebody’s had a fire and just walked away and left one of the pits – it scars the ground by literally burning into the ground, and then there’s the debris left around about it as well.
So, there’s all of that, and it’s always been a part of the job. We pick it up and tidy it up, and try and educate people so they do better next time.
[JB]
What about the paths? Do you have huge stretches of path? And how do you manage to look after them?
[SM]
Well, we’ve got 60 kilometres of path on …
[JB]
60!
[SM]
Yep!
[JB]
In this area?
[SM]
Just in Glencoe. We have 8 Munros – so mountains over 3,000ft, and each of them has a variety of routes to get to the summits, and then there’s also the paths that go through the glen, remains of the old military roads, old Wade’s Roads. There’s one patch of that through the middle of the glen as well.
So, there’s lots of routes that all need looked after.
We have a team actually, in the Trust, that basically are dedicated – they just go round various properties and they’re maintaining the paths everywhere they go.
And then we do little bits of it as well, with the ranger service here on the property.
So, we’ve got all of that going on.
But you combine the 3,500ml, about 13 feet in old money I think that is, of rainfall that we have here in the West Highlands …
[JB]
That can do a lot of damage …
[SM]
It does! And how steep the ground is.
[JB]
Well, this bit’s pretty steep that we’re trying to negotiate now. I wouldn’t like to be going down this in a downpour.
[SM]
It can get a bit slippy. All those pairs of feet leads to erosion on the paths, so we need to get round them on a regular basis to make sure that the drains are all running so that the water gets shot off the path, rather than going down the length of it and taking the surface with it.
[JB]
And you’ve obviously got the idea of biodiversity to take care of these days.
[SM]
Yep. We’ve got habitat impact assessments; we’re managing the grazing on the property with the red deer and roe deer; some areas that we still have sheep on, but they’re managed very tightly. So, we’re doing all that all year round as well.
[JB]
We’re almost back to the visitor centre, but come on, come on, I want to know about the glamourous side of the job – the movie star side of the job!
[SM]
(laughs)
[JB]
Do you know where I’m going with this?
[SM]
I can guess – apart from yourself of course!
[JB]
Oh, thank you!
[SM]
We’ve also had James Bond here on the property – parts of Skyfall were shot here.
[JB]
Well, the important parts of Skyfall, the iconic Highland parts, here!
[SM]
Yes, absolutely.
[JB]
So what did you have to do with that?
[SM]
Well, I wasn’t involved with the stars; I was involved with the location team beforehand. So, location scouts and things found the spot that they were going to park up the Aston Martin when Bond was on the run with M. They’d been driving overnight up from London, and they park up in the morning, and we see M waking up in the passenger seat, Bond standing in front of the car looking down the glen. And that glen is Glen Etive, so she gets out and joins him in front of the car.
[JB]
So, you’re still getting royalties for that, I would imagine?
[SM]
Ha! Not me personally unfortunately …
[JB]
(laughs)
Has that led to location tourism, because that’s a growing thing in Scotland, isn’t it?
[SM]
Definitely. When we’re driving down Glen Etive, we see lots of folk parked up at the side of that spot – they’ve worked out the very spot – and they park up their car and imagine it’s an Aston Martin, and they’ll stand and get their pictures taken in front of it. Thinking themselves James Bond!
[JB]
So, we’re just about to head into your busy, busy season. What is the best piece of advice you could give to anyone listening to this who’s heading here?
[SM]
Take your time.
And take it all in, rather than blasting through and taking a quick picture, and then driving on.
If you’ve got the time, stop. Come in and see us here in the visitor centre and take the landscape in rather than just flying through it.
[JB]
And if you want to do any of the Land Rover Safaris, any of the walks, I would imagine you have to book?
[SM]
Definitely.
We’ll have them online for booking just now, and you can just look it up, book a spot in it and come and see us, and take it all in, and get some of the information that me and the team can give to you as we’re going round.
[JB]
Well, Scott, it is a remarkable place. I don’t think I’ve said that enough.
And as we stand here beside the babbling brook, thank you very much for sharing your enthusiasm and your knowledge with us.
[SM]
You’re welcome. Thanks, Jackie.
[JB]
Well, as you’ve no doubt gathered, the National Trust for Scotland is committed to protecting everything that makes Glencoe special, and it’s an ethos that hasn’t changed since the property came into the Trust’s care back in the 1930s.
And it’s a task that … well, it can’t do it without your continued support and generosity.
So, to find out more about how you can help Scott and the rest of his colleagues at the National Trust for Scotland guard Glencoe in all its glory, visit nts.org.uk for more information.
Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you on the next episode of Love Scotland.
[MV]
Love Scotland is a Think Publishing production, produced by Clare Harris in association with the Big Light Studio. Presented by Jackie Bird, with recording and reporting by Cameron Angus MacKay. Music and post-production is by Brian McAlpine. Executive Producer for the Big Light is Fiona White.
For show notes, access to previous episodes and further information on the National Trust for Scotland, go to nts.org.uk or visit thebiglight.com/lovescotland and please like, share, rate, review and subscribe.
(a man whistles and heavy footsteps walk across a wooden floor)
From The Big Light Studio
(sound of a light switching off)
As wildfires take their toll on Scottish mountainsides, it’s more important than ever that we all take care of our wonderful wild places. Jackie heads to Glencoe to meet ranger Scott McCombie and hear how the National Trust for Scotland’s dedicated staff can help you learn about – and look after – the great outdoors.
Hear about how you can see everything from native forests to golden eagles on a trip to Glencoe and take part in a guided walk or even a Land Rover safari to get as close as possible to Scotland’s outstanding natural heritage.
Scott also talks us through the steps he and his team are making to help ensure the great outdoors stays great, as more of us take the time to enjoy what Scotland has to offer.
This podcast was first released in April 2022.
Betrayed! How the dark days of the Glencoe Massacre are being recreated, 330 years on
Transcript
Six voices: male voiceover (MV); Jackie Bird (JB); Derek Alexander (DA); Cameron Angus MacKay (CM); Emma Hamilton (EH); Lucy Doogan (LD)
(MV) Love Scotland
Brought to you by the National Trust for Scotland
[the sound of wind whirling]
(DA)
You are hereby ordered to fall upon the rebels, the MacDonalds of Glencoe, and put all to the sword under 70. You are to have special care that the Old Fox and his sons do on no account escape your hands. You are to secure all the avenues that no man escape. This you are to put into execution at 5 of the clock precisely and by that time, or very shortly after it, I’ll strive to be at you with a stronger party. If I do not come to you at 5, you are not to tarry for me, but to fall on.
This is by the King’s special command for the good and safety of the country that these miscreants be cut off, root and branch.
[more sound of wind whirling]
(JB)
The words of the official military order to begin what became known as the Massacre of Glencoe. The murder of 38 men, women and children in 1692 was sparked by power, politics and religion, and this year marks the 330th anniversary of that dark chapter of Scottish history.
Well, standing here in 21st-century Glencoe, knowing of the atrocities that took place, the land does seem as sinister as it is beautiful.
It’s a haunting environment and you can’t help but imagine what it was like in the early hours of that freezing February morning, when the inhabitants ran for their lives from the soldiers who they had been looking after for nearly two weeks.
But, I’m getting ahead of myself.
Hello! And welcome to this edition of Love Scotland. I’m Jackie Bird and you join me in a rather blowy Glencoe where the National Trust for Scotland is hoping to understand more about the people involved in those dreadful events through the opening of a replica 17th-century turf house.
Well, the man who has literally been doing some digging on this infamous chapter of Scottish history, and whose voice you heard at the start of this episode, is the Trust’s Head of Archaeology, Derek Alexander.
Derek, you conveyed that military order with gravitas.
(DA)
Thank you very much. [chuckles] I think it’s the setting; it sets off nicely!
(JB)
It’s absolutely chilling here, in more ways than one.
(DA)
Yep.
(JB)
Tell me, it’s often portrayed as a feud between the MacDonald clan and the Campbells. But as I intimated in my introduction, there’s far more to it than that.
(DA)
Yeah, there’s a complex historical story behind it. It really goes back to when James II (or James VII of Scotland) went. He flees the country from England during the Glorious Revolution and his kingship or monarchy is taken over by William of Orange and Mary. And that’s in 1688. And that leads to what is known as the first Jacobite Uprising, Jacobites being supporters of James. So, in Scotland, many of the clans are supporters of the Stuart monarchs and they want to see him returned to the throne. That leads to a number of battles – 1689 Killiecrankie, Dunkeld; 1690 Cromdale. And eventually it starts to calm down a bit and William’s trying to make peace in the Highlands, mainly because he’s had his hands full in Ireland for quite a while. He then wins the Battle of the Boyne; there’s the Treaty of Limerick. He wants to turn his attention to fighting in France, and he wants to pacify the Highlands and pacify the Highland clans, so that he can take his troops to the Continent to fight.
And in order to do that, he says ‘If you come and sign your oath of allegiance to me, we’ll let bygones be bygones. And I can then take my troops away.’
And there’s various machinations of political manoeuvring to try and get the clans to sign up, and eventually they’re given a deadline that they have to sign before 1 January 1692.
And there are various reasons why the MacDonalds are late in signing. They do try and sign …
(JB)
They do try and sign it! But … he wants to make an example, doesn’t he?
(DA)
He does, yes. So he’s late in signing … the chief of MacDonald goes and tries to sign it at Fort William and he tries to get down to Inveraray – he has to go down there. Getting from Glencoe to Inveraray wouldn’t have been easy, so he’s five days late in signing. He does sign …
But there’s another reason. The Scottish government and the king of England and Britain (and Scotland and Ireland at that time) want to set an example, and they want to use a small clan as an example.
And they choose the MacDonalds of Glencoe for a number of reasons. They’ve got a bad reputation – they were involved in Killiecrankie. They’re known to be a bit unruly. They’re quite a small group – there’s maybe only about 400/500 people living in the glen; and also the glen can be easily sealed off at either end. So, if you were going to attack them and wipe them out, then this is a good place to do it.
So they choose to ignore the fact that MacIain had signed the oath of allegiance …
(JB)
The allegiance …
(DA)
… and they send two companies of Argyll troops from the south-west of Argyll in Scotland.
(JB)
Who was a Campbell, which is where we get the Campbells from.
(DA)
Who was a Campbell! And one of the captains of one of the companies who is billeted here is also a Campbell – Robert Campbell of Glenlyon.
And so they stay here and they’re billeted with people in the townships.
And they stay for two weeks, at least – from the start of February until the evening of 12 February.
And then they receive orders from Colonel Hill at Fort William that they’re to turn on their hosts. And that order is the order that is written and passed down to Robert Campbell of Glenlyon, one of the captains of the companies, and he has to turn on his hosts and execute everybody under the age of 70, according to that order.
(JB)
And so they do.
And 38 men, women and children are slain.
(DA)
Mostly women and children, just 13 men.
(JB)
It was a bloody period of history, but this event has sustained. Why?
(DA)
The reason for it … there were plenty of massacres in the 17th century during the civil wars and various other periods, so it’s not unheard of, especially that even civilians would be turned upon. But it’s because of this breach in Highland hospitality, the fact that the troops had been billeted with them for two weeks, that this betrayal – it’s what called a murder under trust.
They had been promised that they would be looked after and they gave the soldiers room for the night, and they gave them a roof over their heads and fed them.
In fact, there are tales of them gambling and drinking – making merry while they were all here. And then of course they then turn on their hosts, and it’s that breach of Highland hospitality that really turns it into an atrocity, something that becomes infamous in Scottish history.
(JB)
And where we are today – this is a small township that formed part of Glencoe, because it wasn’t a village as such?
(DA)
No, so there were about 6 or 7 townships, all the way up the glen, and we’re at the one that was furthest to the east. We know that some of the troops were billeted here at Achtriochtan.
(JB)
Achtriochtan … and how did you find this place?
(DA)
We found this because it was on the 18th-century map, which is the first time the glen was mapped in detail. And it’s on the north side of the old road that runs through the middle of the glen. So, we came out looking for the remains of the settlement, and on this side of the road we found these little humps and bumps in the ground that suggested there was the remains of a township here.
And there are 8 buildings marked on that map, and we’ve got the traces or remains of at least 5; about 3 different enclosures that have got areas of cultivation in them; and what’s called a grain-drying kiln, so where they were drying their barley and oats before they were grinding it.
So, it’s good archaeological remains of a small township.
(JB)
So you started digging and this is the fruits of your labour.
How big is the area that we are looking at?
(DA)
So the area that we’re looking at here, an excavation trench is about 6m wide by about 13m long. And it takes up just about the entire interior and exterior (mostly) of one long building, one longhouse.
We’re coming across what is the gable end of the wall here. And that’s the thickness of the wall, and you’re now standing in the interior …
(JB)
Oh! So these are 17th-century floor stones?
(DA)
These are 17th-century flagstone floors. You’ll maybe see there’s a sort of line of them running through here, part of a drain, it curves and goes out that lower part.
(JB)
It’s like steps to the front door …
(DA)
That’s the doorway, the front door.
Some of the stones have been removed and the walls have largely gone. This large stone here is within the thickness of the wall, so this is the inside face and that’s the outside …
(JB)
So that’s about a metre almost! A metre-thick wall …
(DA)
And you see it’s been cut into the hill slope at the back here, allowing the drainage to go round either side and maybe through the middle so it can come out … there would be a drain taking any effluent out from inside the house as well.
You’d maybe have one room as a sort of living area and the other room as a sort of kitchen area, and of course in the winter you’d bring your cattle into the inside as well. So one area may have functioned as a byre as well.
(JB)
So you find some floor stones – do you ever find any artefacts?
(DA)
Well, exactly where we’re standing, we found bits of objects. We found …
(JB)
You’ve taken something very interesting out of your back pocket!
(DA)
I’ve got a couple of things in my pocket here just to show you. What I’ve brought is some of the iron objects …
(JB)
That you found here?
(DA)
We found them here. We found quite a number, probably in the order of hundreds, of artefacts, mostly glass and pottery, dating to the right sort of period.
This is the remains of an iron object. You can see it’s been partly conserved. You can see it’s hook-shaped – it’s got holes for nails going through it.
(JB)
Oh gosh …
(DA)
That is … what do you think that is?
(JB)
It’s like a bracket … no, no, it’s horseshoe-shaped.
(DA)
Yep, that is a horseshoe. That’s what gives it away!
(JB)
[Laughs]
(DA)
It’s a horseshoe! Yeah.
And also in this area, just behind me, we found the remains of – and it was only when we got it x-rayed – an iron lock. And it’s a lock for probably a piece of furniture, something like a dresser. And when we took it to get it x-rayed, the guy who’s an expert in locks at the museum said ‘do you know it’s still locked?’
[Chuckles]
And there was nothing else attached to it obviously! So, it was quite a nice artefact.
And then this other object that we’ve got in here, which I quite like because it’s got a sort of domestic feel to it, and it’s the sort of thing …
(JB)
Another box! All marked up where it was found. Ooooh.
(DA)
Yes, you can take that out.
(JB)
Can I touch? So, it’s about 10cm; it’s heavy. Oh. Iron?
(DA)
So it’s a big bit of iron and you can see it’s got a rib on it. It’s part of a cast-iron cooking pot, like a cauldron – a black pot you would have had hanging over on a chain in the central fireplace.
So, this may have been the pot that cooked some of the meals for the people that lived in the house here.
(JB)
So, you have the floor. You have the area of the place. How did you know what the constituent parts of the turf house were?
(DA)
Well, what we can see is that the construction of the wall is very poor. So you see this big bit of stone here is sitting on smaller stones. It’s likely to have been built of stone and turf and a mix of materials; it’s not a really nice drystone build. You would expect a very good foundation if it was going to be a drystone construction.
So, we reckon that most of the wall here was probably built on a low stone foundation and then probably built of turf above that. And that’s a technique that you get in many West Highland and Highland archaeological sites.
And turf houses like this are pretty common.
But the trouble is, because they’re made of organic materials, they don’t survive.
So, what they would have had was a stone foundation, turf wall; they would have the roof held on timbers on what was called a cruck frame.
And it’s likely that the timber of the cruck would have sat on this big flat stone here.
So you’d have it running across to the other side, and maybe have four pairs all the way down the line of the building here.
And they would have supported the weight of the roof.
And the roof would probably be covered with a series of cabers, smaller timbers and then covered either in reeds, or rush or heather thatch.
And obviously none of that survives.
So, some of that is taken from evidence that we’ve got from documentary sources that have been written down. And you get some of these descriptions, but a lot of them tend to be later, in the 18th or 19th century.
And then we get one or two survivals that have been photographed in the late 19th and early 20th century, where you have turf buildings surviving.
But even those mostly have rotted away now.
(JB)
So this is … how far away is this from the Glencoe Visitor Centre?
(DA)
We’re about 10 minutes in the car. It’s about 2 miles down the glen from here.
(JB)
And for obvious reasons, that’s where you decided to build the replica.
(DA)
It’s very difficult for people to access this site because it’s a busy road, the A82 coming down through there. And the visitor centre’s the right place to tell that story and to interpret to the people. More people will be able to see it there.
So what we’re doing is we’re taking the evidence that we’ve recovered from the excavation here and we’re taking it and building a replica based on that evidence down at the visitor centre.
(JB)
Well, I can’t wait to see. Shall we go back and find out some more?
(DA)
Let’s get out the wind!
[Sound of cars whooshing past on a wet road]
(JB)
Well, we’re leaving what feels like the gales of Glencoe and we’re back to the car by the side of the A82. And before we reach the shelter of the turf house, it might be just time to take a break.
So, let’s join Cameron for this episode’s Hidden Secret.
(CM)
The Hill House is Charles Rennie Mackintosh and Margaret Macdonald Mackintosh’s architectural masterpiece in Helensburgh.
Working to a commission from Glasgow book publisher Walter Blackie, Charles and Margaret designed almost everything in the house, from the building itself to the furniture and textiles.
The Blackie family lived in the house from 1904 until 1953.
Walter and Anna Blackie had five children: Agnes, Alison, Ruth, Jean and Walter Blackie Jnr.
The children staged theatre performances in an alcove on the first floor of the building between what was once a linen cupboard and the children’s bathroom.
The space looks a bit like an old-fashioned train compartment with two bench seats opposite each other and a narrow window between them.
The alcove was used for a variety of activities, including sewing.
But the children used it to perform shows, storing their dressing-up clothes in the benches.
Audience members would sit on a small sofa across from the alcove.
Here’s Emma Hamilton, Visitor Services Assistant at the Hill House.
[Sound of telephone ringing, and then the beep of an answer machine kicking in]
(EH)
There’s a really lovely quote from Charles Rennie Mackintosh as he hands over the house to the Blackie family. He says:
‘Here is the house. It is not an Italian villa, an English mansion house, a Swiss chalet or a Scotch castle. It is a dwelling house.’
And I think that that really comes to sum up also the importance of the alcove, because it shows how the creativity and imagination and individuality of Charles Rennie Mackintosh in terms of his design reflected in the life in the family in the way that this alcove comes on to have so many different roles within the family, so many different uses.
And he’s very clever, Mackintosh, at creating these spaces that encourage you to look, and then look again.
I mean, you have to step up and step into this alcove, so he’s creating this smaller space within the larger space but also these different levels. And he’s creating something that is really open to interpretation.
And the fact that the children really embrace that, I think children always find these special places for themselves within a house.
But this house, and the way that the Blackie family lived in it, is also very unique.
When people come to look at the house and they see it more as a museum, it’s really this very beautiful space. It’s sometimes hard to imagine a family living there.
And that’s something that’s really important to us, is the fact that it was first and foremost a family home.
And children have also been quoted as talking about the fact that they don’t ever remember being told ‘don’t touch’. They remember running in and out of the patio doors out onto the terrace and playing in the gardens and playing upstairs and downstairs.
They really used the house and they enjoyed the house.
[Beep]
(CM)
Look for the children’s performance stage when you next visit the Hill House.
You’ll find the alcove on the first floor of the building opposite the guest bedroom and dressing room.
Next week, Jackie will be hosting a bonus episode of Love Scotland, featuring a selection of previous Hidden Secrets – little discoveries you’ll find at National Trust for Scotland properties across the country.
(JB)
Well, we’ve left the wind-swept Glencoe township.
Just a couple of miles up the road, we’re at the visitor centre and facing the turf house.
And Derek Alexander, it’s a fine piece of work.
(DA)
It’s beautiful, isn’t it? What a setting as well. I think the two of them set each other off rather nicely.
The steep pitched roof and the splaying walls look great.
(JB)
Shall we open the gate and head up the path and take a closer look?
So, remind me of the dimensions of this?
(DA)
On the outside, it’s about 13m long by 6m wide. The walls, as we saw up at the excavation site, are stone foundation. They’ve got big stones at the bottom there, and there’s really just one or two courses, and they’re about a metre thick.
As you come past the window there, you’ll see this wonderful turf construction …
(JB)
Is it a herringbone …
(DA)
Herringbone in fashion, which is something that you see on the 19th-century photographs and some of the illustrations that you’ll get.
And it’s quite a nice way to cut and to build.
And of course, this turf is cut from just downslope from the area that we’re standing on, the foundations of the house itself.
I mean obviously you need quite a big area of turf for a metre-thick wall which stands 1.2m high.
(JB)
And the thatched roof – what’s that?
(DA)
The thatch is heather. And we had to get heather the right length. We had to go and get that from one of our estates in the Cairngorms, from ground near Mar Lodge.
So that was brought over.
(JB)
So, who built this? How did you find the craftspeople?
(DA)
So, we had a whole team of craftspeople.
(JB)
And how long did it take you?
(DA)
It took pretty much all of 2021. We started in about February last year and the foundations went in.
And then construction on the foundations started in March and it really topped off in about October last year, 2021. So, it was about 6/7 months.
(JB)
And how was it made? All hand-made? Or did you bring in the power tools and the hydraulic lifting? Go on!
(DA)
There’s a certain amount of labour saving in modern …
(JB)
[laughs]
I knew it!
(DA)
They had to use scaffolding to get up to put the thatch and things on.
And then of course, because it’s a building site, you have to have health and safety regulations from that point of view.
But, all the turf was cut by hand, by spade, and then it was shaped with blades and saws and things to get it to the design that we need.
And then the thatch, the heather, was all pulled by hand, and then bundled up.
And the wattle on the inside was all cut, just in the woodland at the back here.
And the big timbers in the inside were taken from An Torr, up in the middle of the glen.
(JB)
So, locally sourced in the main. Sustainable.
We think we’re so advanced, don’t we, in the 21st century. When you look at this, it just shows how a pair of hands and some ingenuity … what they managed to achieve.
(DA)
It must have been a big community engagement to build something like this.
You need a lot of people really, and quite a lot of resources.
And you need to be able to free up enough labour to be able to …
To lose something like this in a fire, or in a massacre, must have had a huge impact on resources in the population.
To rebuild multiple houses like this at one time, especially in winter, must have been a really difficult thing to do.
But talking about sustainability, what happened with these things is, because they’re organic, they eventually do fall to bits.
And what you do is you then plough it back in. You take the big timbers out the inside, you move 20 yards up the slope, and you build another one there.
And then what you do is you plant your crops and things on the ploughed-in remains of this house here.
And of course it’s almost ready fertilised.
(JB)
So, nothing is wasted.
(DA)
No …
I love the corners! Look at the corners; they’re rounded.
And here you can see the thickness of the wall.
But we’ll go all the way round and we’ll go in the front door.
(JB)
How many doors did they have?! Because that’s a side door …
(DA)
That’s a side door there; that might be an exit to the byre …
(JB)
Because you were saying they shared it with their animals.
(DA)
But from a health and safety point of view for a replica, we have to put in two exits as well, so two entrances.
This is the main front entrance.
And of course, this building, as a house, is parallel to the river; has the best views. We’re on the sheltered side here, we’re end-on to the wind.
So, it’s quite similar to the siting of the house at Achtriochtan, up in the township.
And it’s cut in … as you can see, we’ve built the terrace here that it’s sitting on, and we’ve channelled the burn on either side.
In fact, you can just see the scars downslope here, where the turf was cut – just over this lip here.
Come away in!
(JB)
Certainly sustainable.
Let’s see how wind- and water-tight it feels.
Oh!
[Sound of creaking door]
It’s lovely! It’s very dark.
But we’re not alone because one of your colleagues has joined us!
(DA)
This is Lucy.
(JB)
Lucy Doogan, you’ve got a story to tell about this place. Or rather, a few stories to tell.
What’s your role here?
(LD)
My role is to interpret the turf house and share the stories that we want to tell with the public and decide how we want to tell those stories.
(JB)
So, you’re bringing it to life for the visitors.
What do you think of the job that Derek and the team have done?
You spend a lot of time here – is it wind- and water-tight?!
(LD)
It is. It’s completely watertight. We haven’t had any leaks at all whatsoever.
And we quite often have fires in here to keep the place warm and dry, and we actually had a fire on this morning, so it’s nice and cosy at the moment.
(JB)
It’s split into two rooms, one of which, Derek you were saying, they would have their animals in in the winter in here.
(DA)
In the winter months you’d probably need to bring a couple of cows in, and maybe sheep, just to get them out of the snow, and have a milk cow in the house, in the byre – and you’d live in one end.
And in the summer months, they’d be out in the field.
So yep, split into two so you could do that.
(JB)
It certainly smells lovely. Lucy, is that a peat fire?
(LD)
It is – we use a mixture of peat and wood.
(JB)
It must have been pretty smoky because I can’t see a chimney.
(LD)
It does get very smoky when you first light the fire.
And we’ve been having fires in both rooms because the smoke helps to preserve the materials in the roof and preserve the thatch, so we’ve been having fires in both rooms. So, it does get very smoky, but it’s likely that if they had cattle in the other room, they wouldn’t have had a fire in there with the cows.
(JB)
So how many people would have lived here? And what would the set-up have been?
(LD)
It would probably have been an extended family, so 8 people, maybe a little bit more than that, maybe fewer than that.
But there would have been quite a lot of people living in this one room.
So again, I guess that would help to keep the place nice and warm.
They would have spent the evenings inside the house: cooking, telling stories around the fire, sleeping in here possibly in box-beds, using bracken or heather covered in material as a kind of mattress.
But during the day they would probably have done the majority of their work outdoors where it’s much brighter.
Obviously, it’s quite dark in here.
(JB)
Obviously in the winter … because it’s pitch black just now and it’s daytime … they would have lived by the sun, I suppose?
(LD)
Yeah, definitely. Absolutely, they would rise and fall with the sun, as they say.
And do their work when they could, and the rest of the time they would have stayed inside – and it’s probably why the Highlands has such a rich oral culture, a culture of story-telling, because people would have spent a lot of the winter inside, gathered round the fire, entertaining themselves.
(JB)
Now, the room has just been finished. Is it the aim to put some furniture in or some bedding to give it more of a flavour of what it would have looked like?
(LD)
That’s something that we’re still deciding on at the moment. We’re in quite an exciting early stage of development when it comes to the interpretation.
There are lots of places that already do that very well – the Highland Folk Museum, for example, you can go and visit their turf houses which are fully kitted out as they would have been in the 17th century.
At the moment, we’re actually developing a soundscape. So, we’re working to try and record the type of noises that you would have heard in and around the turf house in the 17th century, so that we can install that into the turf house and create a kind of sensory, immersive experience in that way.
And then maybe further down the line, we will dress the space and add in furniture and other things.
(JB)
So, it’s really a place for visitors to use their imagination and to think about what it was really like to be sitting here at 9 o’clock on a dark and windy night.
(LD)
Definitely.
The building itself is almost a work of art in itself as well as being a really functional shelter and home.
There’s so many different textures and earthy natural colours that we really want to showcase them and maybe not clutter the space too much and hide those features.
So, the building and all the materials used give you that feeling of being back in the 17th century; hopefully the soundscape will add to that.
But definitely, it is a space that allows you to use your own imagination to experience life as it would have been for the people of Glencoe back in the 17th century.
(JB)
And does it add to the story of the horrors that happened here? They’re not just seen as numbers. I suppose something like this makes you think these were real people and this was how they lived.
(LD)
I mean we’ve spent quite a lot of time inside the turf house when it’s pouring rain outside and blowing a gale, and when we’ve got fires on in here and you can sit and get a little bit of warmth before you go back outside, and it’s really easy to imagine the family inside, all around the fire, hiding from the bad weather.
And then on top of that you imagine them offering their hospitality to the troops who were billeted in with them, and sharing their space, sharing what little they had with those troops.
And then from that, you imagine everything that happened after that point.
The horrors that they went through.
(JB)
Certainly.
It’s early days – what’s been the response of visitors so far?
(LD)
We’ve had a really great response from people.
I think when you first step into the building, you have no idea from the outside what it’s like on the inside. It’s almost a bit of a Tardis – people comment on how spacious and how big and sturdy it is when you come in from outside.
(JB)
Absolutely, yes.
(LD)
And people are really impressed and comment quite often on just the amount of work that’s gone into it, the skill of the craftspeople, all of the different techniques that have been used.
(JB)
And what do they want to know about the people who lived here? What are the questions they ask you?
(LD)
Some of the most common questions are really simple ones.
How did they cook?
Where did they sleep?
Where did they go to the toilet?
Simple questions like that – people really just want to know the everyday life, the tasks the people had to do day in, day out – and how they did them. The really human side of it.
(JB)
That’s right. Human, isn’t it – and that’s really what it’s all about.
And if you want to find out how they did those things, then you’ll have to come here and you’ll have to ask Lucy!
Lucy, thank you.
Derek, Lucy described it as a work of art, and I echo that. You must be very proud of it.
(DA)
I’m very proud of it.
It’s one of these things … when you’re an archaeologist, you spend a lot of time digging things up. Archaeology is a destructive process: you start off with something, you remove things to get the evidence.
This is the opposite way round. You start off with nothing when you’re building a replica like this, and you end up with something.
And you stand back, and you look at it – it really is a team effort.
You’ve got the people who did the stonework; you’ve got the people who did the timber work; the people who did the green woodworking, the wattle work, the cutting of the turf, the construction … I mean the architect as well obviously had to make sure that it all came together.
So, it really has been a wonderful project to be involved with and great to see something start off from an excavation, from the evidence that we gathered – to something that you can stand in and interpret, which Lucy’s been doing really well.
(JB)
A job well done.
Derek, thank you very much; and Lucy, thank you for your expertise.
I can’t recommend a visit here highly enough.
And if you would like to play your part in helping the National Trust for Scotland bring the past to life, then visit nts.org.uk to find out some more.
And that’s also where you can get details about the opening times of the turf house and about all the tours that are available.
Meanwhile, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you’re listening to this and let us know if there are any of your favourite Trust places you’d like me to come and visit.
Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you for the next episode of Love Scotland very soon.
Bye bye.
(MV)
Love Scotland is a Think Publishing production, produced by Clare Harris in association with the Big Light Studio. Presented by Jackie Bird, with recording and reporting by Cameron Angus MacKay. Music and post-production is by Brian McAlpine. Executive Producer for the Big Light is Fiona White.
For show notes, access to previous episodes and further information on the National Trust for Scotland, go to nts.org.uk or visit thebiglight.com/lovescotland and please like, share, rate, review and subscribe.
(a man whistles and heavy footsteps walk across a wooden floor)
From The Big Light Studio
(sound of a light switching off)
Jackie Bird heads to Glencoe with the National Trust for Scotland’s Derek Alexander and Lucy Doogan to mark 330 years since the massacre of the MacDonald clan here – one of the most harrowing moments in Scottish history.
On 13 February 1692, 38 men, women and children were murdered by Scottish army companies of Argyll’s Foot Regiment. For two weeks prior to the bloodshed, clan members had played host to the soldiers in their modest turf dwellings on the slopes of the glen.
As the Trust opens the faithfully recreated turf house at the site, we hear how a better insight into the way the clans of Glencoe lived will bring the history of the massacre to new generations of visitors.
Also in this episode, Cameron hears about a wonderful plaything on show at Helensburgh’s Hill House.
This podcast was first released in February 2022.